Last modified: 2020-10-31 by pete loeser
Keywords: ufe | unidentified flags | 2020 |
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Below is a series of images of flags that have been provided to FOTW; some we have recognized, and some we have been unable to recognize. If you can help us identify any of these flags, please let us know! Contact the: UFE Editor.
Identification Key:
Image from Jim Bills, 22 October 2020
I was hoping to find information about the history of Attack Aviation guidon and flags. The guidon can [could] be seen here (original page screen shot).
I talked to Jon Bernstein, a former army officer and curator at the USMC museum but he could only tell me that the colors began to be seen around Vietnam. Any information you can provide would be much appreciated.
Jim Bills, 22 October 2020
I too was interested in that I'd never heard of such a guidon. Additionally, I cannot find a reference to it in AR840-10; and in terms of the design, although the image was in black and white, it is clearly a "cavalry" style guidon, as only that branch utilizes the split field, numeral over letter and counterchanged battalion numeral.
To learn more, I called US Military Direct to ask. On the first call, the gentleman who answered in a heavy foreign accent, was unfamiliar with this guidon asking if it was Army or Air Force, and asked for an image.
I sent them a screen shot and received the speedy reply, "We had customer requests to place orders several times. How can I help you?"
I wrote back, asking what the colors were? There was no response, so I called again. This time a woman answered, also in a heavy foreign accent, and asked if I wanted to place an order. I said, "No." I wanted to know the colors. She replied that they were black and white.
I asked what type of units ordered these flags, and was told military units.
I asked about the image, noting that all the other guidons on their site were photographs and that this was a line drawing. She asked why I was concerned about that? I said I was not, that I was simply trying to identify this guidon and the type of unit it was for. She said all their guidons were "official," and hung up.
When I returned to the link it now states, "Unavailable product - This product is unavailable or temporary disabled."
So, clearly, we have touched a nerve.
My theory is that this was originally an error that was perpetuated on their website. I think someone trying to place a legitimate order conflated two guidons. Most likely from a higher echelon formation like a division that has integral aviation units like the 1st Cavalry Division where some ground and aviation units might be designated "Attack/Recon" or "Attack Companies."
So, the mystery has not really been solved, US Direct Military is not talking, and there is no official mention of such a unit or guidon.
Jim Ferrigan, 22 October 2020
Jim and I exchanged phone calls on this topic and I echo what he mentions in his email. Most of my American military guidon experience is with Air Force guidons, but I have dealt with Army guidons over the years...I've not seen one in black and white and the attack units I know of would be in different colors/markings (ref Jim's comments). To me, the guidon also seems a bit long...?
A couple of thoughts to consider...
- It has been my experience both while at home with units in the continental US, as well as while deployed (Former Yugoslavia, Iraq, etc), that unit members have guidons made for presentation purposes or special "activities" that more or less comply with their service regulations (since that's what they're familiar with) but deviate for their particular purpose (I have a couple I've used myself). One example, I was part of a deployed joint headquarters back in the mid-90s and the staff had an unofficial guidon made as a group gift for the general's departure using a split purple and white field since it was a joint command.
- The guidon may not actually be military...many US police departments (and I believe fire) use guidons within their department as well in their training academies...the description may not be accurate for the graphic?...again, just another approach to consider.
I know this doesn't nail much down, but hope it adds to the possibilities...
Stan Contrades, 22 October 2020
Images from Jim Bills, 22 October 2020
Gentlemen, I am an Army attack pilot. I've had my wings since 98. Started flying attack for the National Guard in 99 where I noticed black and white frequently associated with the attack community. Here are examples of various unit patches that carry the black and white motif from which I have seen black and white attack flags and guidons. After finally looking at AR840-10, I understand why all of our aviation guidons were Blue and Orange or Gold, because the reg. said so! I used to see more of the black and white guidons and flags. Most recently I saw one from a major who was in the 101st. I have sent an email to a friend stationed at Fort Rucker about the color scheme lineage but have not heard back from him yet. I should have asked a long time ago when I was stationed there as well. I will likely call the Fort Rucker Museum tomorrow and see what they say. If I hear anything I will report back. I'm thinking the frequency is notable within the 101st Airborne and wouldn't be surprised if the color scheme harks to their lineage.
Jim Bills, 22 October 2020
It would seen that the schema of using black and white "cavalry" style guidons is a practice, but a practice without portfolio, but rather confirmed through use.
Jim Ferrigan, 22 October 2020
Once again echoing Jim...interesting the guidon is divided horizontally while it looks like a diagonal division is more prevalent with insignia...
Stan Contrades, 22 October 2020
Image from Jim Ferrigan, 22 October 2020
I did find one other site selling a white guidon for U.S. Army Aviation, image attached.
Jim Ferrigan, 22 October 2020
#33g
#33h
Images located by Jim Ferrigan, 24 October 2020 (cropped by UFE Editor)
A romp around the Internet revealed images containing two "aviation" guidons in use, so they exist in real life. One (#33g) is captioned, "U.S. Army Soldiers of the 1st Battalion, 25th Aviation Regiment Attack Reconnaissance Battalion (ARB), stand in formation during a color uncasing ceremony on Fort Wainwright, Alaska, April 8, 2019. The ceremony signifies the unit's return home to Alaska from routine nine-month rotational deployment from the Republic of Korea." (Alamy Image ID: T4F2MM))
Another (#33h) is captioned "Lt. Col. Matthew Landrum, commander of the 1st Battalion, 25th Aviation Regiment, and Command Sgt. Maj. Antonio Ruiz, 1-25 ARB command sergeant major, cased the unit's colors during a Color Casing Ceremony June 1, in preparation for the unit's upcoming orders. The colors will remain cased until the unit arrives at their forward location where the commander and command sergeant major will hold a ceremony to uncase the colors." (Photo by Daniel Nelson, Fort Wainwright Public Affairs))
These allows us to infer that these are in use, if unofficially, both deployed and in country. I will continue my search.
Jim Ferrigan, 24 October 2020
Well done, Jim! If they're unofficial, looks like no one is raising a ruckus...using them in a formal battalion formation (since they're casing the colors they may be deactivating the unit...a big deal) is at least tacit approval! Looks like they read proper on both sides too...
The only thought I had about the drawing that started it all is the length...appears a bit longer than usual (to me): the battalion number being so close to the leading edge means it doesn't take a sleeve into account, so that doesn't help. Oh well...
Stan Contrades, 24 October 2020
To be blunt, I think these are unauthorized, but will check with my contact at the Institute of Heraldry on Monday, to see if something changed for subordinate companies of AH-64 battalions (per doctrine, Attack/Reconnaissance Battalion - AH-64).
With one exception, all aviation guidons are golden orange on ultramarine blue. The one exception is for the troops of the brigade
cavalry squadron in combat aviation brigades (per doctrine Attack/Reconnaissance Squadron-Heavy (AH-64), which use white and red cavalry guidons.
A few years ago, there were some unauthorized guidons in use for the US Army Cyber Protection Brigade, which were oriental blue and orange (a mashup of Military Intelligence Corps and Signal Corps colors). These were eventually replaced with standard black on steel gray Cyber Corps guidons.
But for now, I don't know what the story is for these.
Dave Fowler, 24 October 2020
Well, I checked the Facebook pages of a bunch of AH-64 battalions, and they all seem to be using black or dark blue over white guidon, so something must have changed.
Dave Fowler, 24 October 2020