Last modified: 2017-08-11 by pete loeser
Keywords: ufe | unidentified flags | 2017 |
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Below is a series of images of flags that have been provided to FOTW; some we have recognized, and some we have been unable to recognize. If you can help us identify any of these flags, please let us know! Contact the: UFE Editor.
Identification Key:
#17a
#17b
Images by Corentin Chamboredon, 18 April 2017
In a color film made by Lowell Thomas in Tibet in 1949, I discovered two unknown Tibetan army flags - a blank mountain flag and a possible Chadang regiment flag - in the footage.(source)
First, from 1:51 to 2:04, we see the flag (#17a) with a blank mountain I had reported. And the mountain is indeed deprived of its usual lions and other symbols. Also, as in the flag I had previously reported, it has three borders of different color: yellow at the upper border, red at the hoist border, blue at the lower border. What is great is that I now know that this flag has twelve stripes with three of them being yellow. Which makes, clockwise from the lower hoist : blue, yellow, red, blue, red, yellow, red, blue, red, blue, yellow, red.
From 2:04 to 2:10 in the film, we can see the regular regimental flag of the Khadang regiment. As the Tibetan flag stresses, it looks like this flag is made of brocade. It also has three borders of different colors, but they are not exactly the same as those we can see on the film by Ilyia Tolstoy and Brooke Dolan in 1943 nor on the "blank mountain" one above (#17a). Here the lower border is still blue, but the upper border seems to be of a different shade of yellow (maybe golden?) than the stripes of the field, and the hoist border seems to have yet another shade of yellow with blue or green ornamentations (maybe text as the flag here). The two squares and lozenge are yellow, of the same shade of the stripes.
Then, between 1:05 and 1:17, we can see a flag (#17b) flown above a gate, east to the Potala. From the various maps of the city I have checked and how close the palace it seems to be, I think this flag was flown on the eastern gate of the Shöl area. Shöl was the administrative village at the foot of the palace, a compound which included the Army headquarters (or Magchigang in Tibetan).
This second flag (#17b) is square, with a red field. In the middle, there is a yellow double-vajra and a white "cha" letter underneath. The flag has a yellow border on three sides with two purple squares on top and bottom and a lozenge in the middle. It looks very similar to this flag shown on a black and white photograph and it also has some similarity with this flag I previously reported (source) from a 1945 film by James Guthrie. But the differences are also very clear: the flag filmed by Thomas has a different shape and color, and displays an additional letter, a border with squares and a lozenge. In contrast, the flag filmed by Guthrie is clearly rectangular and orange, without letter (as far as I can see).
There is a four years gap between these two films, a period which saw massive political changes in Tibet. So I don't know if this simply shows two different versions of the same flag, or if they were two different flags used in the same time. The "cha" letter is somehow intriguing since it would indicate that this flag belonged to the Chadang regiment which was transformed from an artillery regiment to a police regiment in 1948. But the Chadang regiment was, if I'm correct, based in the Jokhang complex in the very center of Lhassa, a place which doesn't match with the surroundings shown of the film.
Source: Tibet Encyclopedia (German version).
Corentin Chamboredon, 18 April 2017
There is another particularity to flag (#17a): the sun in the center emits no rays. There are twelve color stripes, but no rays seems to come out on them.
On second thoughts, this flag has differences with the flags I made on Khadang regiment of Tibetan Army (Tibet): the few color images I could find of this regimental flag showed it with two yellow stripes. See the documentary "The Lost World of Tibet" at 19:33, or Tolstoy's film from 14:12 to 14:45). Another difference is that in "The Lost World of Tibet", the flag has a blue stripe on its lower fly, while this blank flag has a red stripe instead (as in Tolstoy's film).
Corentin Chamboredon, 18 April 2017
There are some traces, of the pattern [on the blank white mountain on #17a], but I can't make out whether it completely faded, or whether what we see is the pattern on the other side. This blank mountain looks blank. Empty. Not a trace. This is truly just a mountain, not a mountain with charges removed or shining through.
Peter Hans van den Muijzenberg, 18 April 2017
Yes, the weather was apparently very bright, and we see nothing: no visible sewing which could indicate there was something before, no transparency letting us see the reverse.
Now, I wonder what this flag without charges could represent. It seems a little strange for a flag of a military unit, since they tend to show each unit's individuality. Or maybe this blankness was considered a particularity by itself... Are there any other examples in foreign countries of such blank flags? I only remember that French royal military flags had something close: the "drapeau colonel" of units had a white field with a white cross, but I was told the cross was sewn, so somehow visible if you were close enough.
Corentin Chamboredon, 19 April 2017
Image from Corentin Chamboredon, 19 May 2017
I found a slightly less blurry image, and I send a crop of these two Tibetan flags, including the one which clearly belong to the Kadang regiment.
It may be better than the images at Kadang regiment of Tibetan Army, since those show the flag of another regiment (the Khadang one).
Corentin Chamboredon, 19 April 2017
Image from Jan-Hendrik Gerdau, 20 May 2017
There are two flags on a painting depicting a historical war ship. Can you help me identify these flags.
Jan-Hendrik Gerdau, 20 May 2017
Based on the multiple stripes and the streamer below the mainmast flag, I think this is a Dutch scene. However, I cannot identify the flags definitively.
Rob Raeside, 20 May 2017
It looks like a Dutch naval flag on the top. but does it have an image in the central white stripe? So far I haven't seen naval flags like these before, but it looks like the big blue flag at the stern holds a Venetian lion. The Netherlands and Venice at one time were both republics, but why would they fly both these flags on one ship? Can we see a better quality image if possible?
Jos Poels, 20 May 2017
Do we have the URL or the source for this picture by Jan-Hendrik Gerdau?
Esteban Rivera, 27 May 2017
The top flag almost looks like the Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie, or flag of the Rotterdam Administrator, unless my old eyes deceive me. See Flags of the United Dutch East Indies Company on my website, or on the Netherlands East India Company on our website. I can't even guess at the other flag, but I bet it is of Dutch origins. This looks like a mystery for Peter Hans.
Pete Loeser, 27 May 2017
Well, possibly a flag of an admiralty, but that's not the same thing as the flag of a VOC Chamber. I also can't even guess at the other flag, perhaps even Schiermonnikoog, for all I know. This, and the fact that it's a painting is all we have. There's not enough detail to be sure of the flags; we can't make out the charge on the blue flag, for example. But it may well be that that information is simply not in the painting at all. If the ship is only shown as a small part of the painting, it may simply not have the resolution to show such detail.
This one is probably going to need more context. If there's more information available about the painting and what it portraits, then that might help us guess about where to look. Otherwise, a naval expert shown enough of the ship might be able to date the model, and possibly determine its origin, as the context.
Peter Hans van den Muijzenberg, 27 May 2017
Isn't Schiermonnikoog the Dutch island that somehow keeps moving a bit or changing shape? I wonder if that means they have to keep changing seals and flag designs also? Last I'd heard was the island has a flag with a lot of horizontal stripes in the Dutch national colors surrounding a stripe of green; Ah here it is.
Pete Loeser, 28 May 2017
I don't think any of the Frisian Isles have the shape of the island on their flags, thus the flags wouldn't change because the islands do. Schiermonnikoog shrunk for a while, but then expanded again. It's still within its former boundaries, but an inattentive border drawer managed to draw the border of the municipality and province according to its smaller size, hence the island has since grown out of its municipality and province. Recently, the border has been moved to more or less correct this. Our unknown naval flag has a green sheen over the middle stripe; that's why I mentioned Schiermonnikoog.
Jan-Hendrik hopes to provide more images soon.
Peter Hans van den Muijzenberg, 28 May 2017
Image from Esteban Rivera, 25 June 2017
On June 23 I spotted this flag (source). The picture was published on June 3, 2016 by Peter Miles on his website "The Itinerant Football Watcher" and it was taken durng a game between local club IFK Österåker FK (a football club that currently plays in "Division 3 Stockholm Norra" which is the fifth tier of Swedish football) and another team.
Esteban Rivera, 25 June 2017
I just identified this flag as the flag of BKV Norrtälje. The flag is the logo on a square white flag. BKV (Bollklubben Vargarna) Norrtälje) is a Swedish football club located in Norrtälje. The team was established in 1933 and currently plays in Division 2 Norra Svealand, which is the country's fourth tier division. It changed its name to BKV (Bollklubben Vargarna) Norrtälje in 1993 when it moved to Norrtälje. For additional information go to BKV Norrtälje (official website).
Esteban Rivera, 25 June 2017
Image from Dallas Pope, 27 July 2017
Like many others, I enjoy flags and write to you as a last resort. The flag in the attached picture is what I am trying to identify. The flag is apparently American-made and measures 12 x 18 in. It is made of a nylon material and is well stitched. There are no markings other than the size dimensions on the grommet seam. The grommets do not appear to have much if any wear. The flag appears to date from the 60s or 70s as determined by the muslin or cotton grommet seam. Based on the colors, I first thought that it had a USMC meaning to it. I have shown this to many of my friends in the militaria community, and the best guess is that the center script may be the key to identifying it. One person suspects that the script in the center is Kenghi and that this flag may have been used for a naval escort in Okinawa. That's quite a stretch, but I have nothing else to go on.
I would appreciate any thoughts or ideas that you may have. I'm also sending some of your unknown Flags to the members of my collectors group to see what their thoughts are on them. Maybe we can also help you. Thanks in advance.
Dallas Pope, 27 July 2017
This is a beautiful flag, but I have no idea what it is! Dallas sent the flag photographed hanging vertically, and I rotated it and flipped it - so it may well be upside down. Do let us know if your group can get some identifications on our long list of unknown flags!
Rob Raeside, 27 July 2017
I think Rob got it right, as the black symbol in the middle is a distinct form of a capital "S", which is not inversable. Furthermore, the 2x3 checkered pattern inside the diamond can be interpreted as the flags of Germany and Austria (or of any other red and white horizontal triband, such as Bremerhavens, side by side. The background with 13 red and white horizontal stripes suggests an U.S. flag (or of an entity with ties to the U.S.), though, and the four golden stars on the corners, pointing to the nearest vertical edge, could be either decorative or meaningful.
I'd start searching for houseflags of shipping companies based in Bremerhaven that sail(ed) to New York City.
António Martins-Tuválkin, 27 July 2017
Image from William Garrison, 1 August 2017
Hopefully you can identify this red, black and white flag used in Australia by an anti-fascist group named: "Antifaschistische Aktion" c. July 2017. I took a quick look at the FOTW website for Australia, but didn't notice it.
(image) (source)
William Garrison, 1 August 2017
This is actually a flag - one of many variants - of an organization from Germany called the Anti-Fascist Action. Being sold online, their flags often appear in other countries, even those where German language is not spoken (except if taught as a foreign language, that is)
Tomislav Todorovic, 2 August 2017
Also active in France as "Anti-Fascist Action" using same design - see eight entry down on Political Flags of Extremism - Part 1. Similar movements emerged all over Europe (Denmark, Netherlands, Sweden, Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Spain) in the 1990s. They are based on the German Communist Antifaschistiche Aktion movement of the 1930s which was crushed by the Nazis after they got into power in 1933. Their main goal is to get rid of extreme-rightist and neo-Nazi movements, stopping at nothing, including street violence and illegal acts.
Pete Loeser, 2 August 2017
Also found on FOTW (here).
Ivan Sache, 7 August 2017
#28a
#28b
Images from Bruce Jones, 10 August 2017
I need some help with these unidentified flags.
A buckle (#28a): I believe this is a private signal over crossed yacht clubs, NYYC on the bottom left. But the other two I do not know. My sister found this near Marblehead, MA
A two-handled cup (#28b): Now, this one I know, but want to confirm with you if possible. I have a set of china with this. I think it is from the mid 1950s, the Yacht: "The Trail" which was in New York and Miami Beach. Owned by Mr & Mrs James L Oakes. Suzie had a passion for her white poodles.
Bruce Jones, 10 August 2017
The red pennant likely has a Maryland connection.
Rob Raeside, 10 Auguest 2017
Image from Jonathan Dixon, 11 August 2017
The bottom right red pennant with gold and black diamond referring to the Calvert arms would be the burgee of the Annapolis Yacht Club. Perhaps the buckle has something to do with the Annapolis-Newport Race?
Jonathan Dixon, 10 August 2017
Thanks, that was a great suggestion. Found it.
Bruce Jones, 11 August 2017
Great! And that is one we don't have!
Rob Raeside, 11 Auguest 2017